Recording 78 rpm with DC7

[Copper]

Hi Guys

I'm new into this,and I have a very nice collection of 78rpm... I bought a USB turn table ION TTUSB, and I also bought a 78rpm stylus for that table.. but the table is running 33 1/3 and 45

Here is my question..

What speed should i make the recording to have the best result 33 1/3 or 45rpm.... I know i can convert it after with DC7.... just want to start on the right foot before starting recording them.

Daniel
Sorry for my english, i'm french

[Dan McDonald]

Hey Copper - your English is just fine.

Record at high sampling rates and bit level such as 24-bit, 96kHz.

You'd need to know whether the 78 is a true 78 or actually an 80 or a 78.2 or 78.8 or those variants if you want to be exactly accurate. There are various posts here about different labels and what their exact speed was, so it may take some digging.

There is a preset for 45 to 78 mastering (various speeds).

I would record at the slower speed myself, and then create the speed change preset I needed. To calculate what you need, just go from the true speed (78) divided by the true speed record speed (33.33). In this case, it's 2.34. The command is set up as percentages so that 0 is no speed change, and 100 is doubling the speed, 200 is tripling the speed, so you need 134 if you're going to go with 78 recorded at 33.33

Put 134 in the little boxes (start and stop speeds) and save it as a preset, and you should be ok.

I think you could get good results by declicking before the speed change, since the clicks will be at normal speed and if you do it after the speed change conversion, the clicks will not be behaving in the way the algorithms will expect.

If I'm wrong on any of this, someone will correct me.

Dan

[Dan McDonald]

I'll stick my neck out a little on this one to give a rationale for why 33.33 instead of 45. My rationale is that, with clicks and scratches, you should get a slight advantage if you go slower, since the needle should return to normal in less linear space, because the record is going slower.

Since you have plenty of frequency 'head room' - something at 15kHz on a 78 would be at around 43% of that, or 6.4kHz when recorded, but then back up to 15 kHz when you get it to the right speed. Lower material should still be ok - 20Hz would go down to 8.6Hz, which I think is still fine for a soundcard to capture (somebody correct me if that's wrong).

Very high frequency info in the clicks might be a problem - If it's click material up at 30kHz, when you change the speed, it's up to 70kHz, so, a 96kHz sampling frequency would not get it all. That's another reason to do the de-clicking before you change the speed, as the de-clickers perform well with high-frequency info.

If you find that there is some distortion when you bring the file up to speed, then you have been to aggressive in the de-clicking.

Anyway, that's my logic about why I suggested the slower speed (33.33). I don't see any advantage to the faster speed (45) unless you want to de-click after the speed change, but then you're going to be having to adjust everything quite a bit in order to find the right settings.

Dan

[Craig Maier]

Hi,

I would be a little careful about running too slowly. Yes, the high frequency portion of the audio spectrum will be best preserved with slower turntable speeds - - - that is absolutely true.

However, there is a tradeoff. The low frequencies on the record are now going to be divided downwards and be pushing the lower frequency response limits on the phono cartridge. So, the bottom line is that you may loose some bass response if you fractional speed master at too slow a speed.

I fractional speed master at 45 RPM because I think that it preserves the bass better than when using 33.33 RPM with the cartridge that I use for 78s (Stanton 500). And, at 45 RPM, the top end comes through very nicely and the bass remains intact.

Note: Using round numbers when transferring a 78 at 45 RPM, a 50 Hz note will appear to be around 29 Hz to your phono cartridge. A good phono cartridge will be able to reproduce that signal. However, if you transfer the same 78 at 33.33 RPM, that 50 Hz bass note will appear as a 21 Hz note. It will take a pretty good phono cartridge to respond to that - - - most are not flat down to 20 Hz.

Just my 0.02.

ps - - - I perform a light declicking on the fractional speed master transfer (keep the control set pretty low on the EZ Impulse filter (around 30, 30, 50 {Scratch, Crackle, Narrow Crackle) in its raw state. Then, I up-convert it to the proper speed using the speed change filter and re-run the impulse filter with the setting at around 50, 50, 60.

pss - - - Make sure that you reverse your RIAA curve with the VPA only after you have up-converted the speed to real time. Otherwise, the curve correction will be incorrect.

psss - - - I think that you have to up-convert in two steps if you master a 78 at 33.33 RPM (or set up two speed change filters in the Multifilter). The reason is that the max capability of the speed change filter is 2 X. So, first you change from 33.33 to 66.66 RPM with a doubling. Then, you must convert from 66.66 to 78.2 (or whatever the right number is). I think that our friend DJ posted some unusual speed change filters somewhere on the presets sharing area of this forum.

[Copper]

Ok if I understand this properly step by step..

a) I'm recording with the turn table set at 45rpm
b) 44.1 Khz and 24 bit when recording
c) EZ Impulse filter around 30, 30, 50,Scratch, Crackle, Narrow Crackle
d) up-convert it to the proper speed using the speed change filter 45 to 78
e) re-run the EZ impulse filter with the setting at around 50, 50, 60
f) reverse the RIAA curve with the VPA

If recorded at 33.33 i have to up-convert in 2 step

Am i OK,
Only the "f" part, I'm not sure about... do you have a tutorial on that somewhere... or you can tell me what is the general settings.. so i can testing it...

Thanks guys really appreciate the help..

Daniel

[Craig Maier]

Hi,

When I do it, I reverse your steps e and f. In other words, I correct the Equalization with the VPA before the second round of Impulse Noise removal.

It may work the other way (f before e) also, but that is not my standard method. You can try it both ways and see what sounds the best.

Also, when I provided those settings, those are starting points. I would adjust them a little for each recording to get the best balance between impulse noise removal and minimal distortion.

Craig

ps - your English is infinitely better than my French!

pss - I think that there are various tutorials in the users guide about various operations, but none that I can think of that incorporate all of the things that you are trying to do. So, there is a tutorial in the users manual on how to use the Speed Change Filter and another one on how to use the VPA and another one on how to use the EZ Impulse Filter, etc. But, it looks like we are creating that combined tutorial right here on this forum.

[Copper]

Ok Craig

No problem reversing e and f

The VPA? is under Filter / Phono Preamp

So to run this I have to use Flat Preamp? Just need the general settings similar of what you just wrote for the Ez impulse I know i will have to play with it..

Thanks my friend

Daniel

[Craig Maier]

Hi,

Yes, it is under Filter/Phono Preamp. No, you do not need a flat preamp (but they work the best). It will work with either a flat pre-amp or with an RIAA preamp. You just need to check the hardware box that agrees with your setup, and it then adjusts itself to the situation.

So, for example, if you are using an RIAA preamp, set the "Preamp Hardware" to "Standard RIAA Preamp". Then set the "Record Type" for "European 78s" or "American 78" or "Acoustical" depending on what type of record you are working with.

Note: European and American 78 settings are intended for Electrical Type recordings which used a Turnover curve.

Craig

[Dan McDonald]

Hey Craig -
Yes, I woke up in the middle of the night and was thinking about this issue, and decided 45 was better because of the low frequency issue, separating bass from rumble, etc. could get nasty.

Sorry for the misinformation, Copper! I think Craig's suggestion wins out.


Dan

[Copper]

You just need to check the hardware box that agrees with your setup, and it then adjusts itself to the situation.

I'm sorry but how do i know whitch one to use, my turntable is plug into a USB port, I dont have nothing between the table and PC. And I can use either RCA or USB ( i'm using USB)

RIAA or FLAT or Line Input

Daniel

[Craig Maier]

I just looked up DJBohns preset posting for various 78 RPM speeds and it is located at the following link:

http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/showthread.php?t=966

Copper - - - note that some early Pathe' records were recorded at 100 RPM and I think that they were quite popular in France, so you may have some.

Craig

keywords: Fractional Speed Mastering, Using a standard turntable to record 78s, Recording 78s at 33 RPM, Recording 78s at 45 RPM, half speed mastering, half speed transfer

[Copper]

Thanks

I'll look into that tread....

Oh we are a lot more american then french from france, i'm from Quebec in Canada... Most of our 78rpm, was made by american company in Canada or in US.

Daniel

[DougMac]

Turntable Question

Daniel,

I went to the ION site to check the manual, but you have to sign up first and I didn't want to.

From one of your earlier posts, it sounds like there is a setting that allows you to record a flat signal from your turntable. Is that correct? If so, that's the setting you need to use.

Doug

[Copper]

I just looked up DJBohns preset posting for various 78 RPM speeds and it is located at the following link:

http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/showthread.php?t=966

I try to download, it tell me the file is corrupted..... if anybody else as the file can you send it by email? if yes send me a PM

If someone as some preset settings to help me out with that Virtual Phono Preamp, or just help me out to make it work with RCA Victor 78rpm.... I dont mind giving some donation for the help.. PM me if interested.

Thanks

[Craig Maier]

We are trying to figure out what happened to the 78 preset file. Do not know right now about it; I have tried to contact DJ to see if he has a copy of it.

As for the VPA, I would have to know if your preamp is flat or RIAA. (I get the impression that it may be built into your turntable)

Craig