Click at Beginning and End of Files

I've had a small but nagging issue with the DC software since version 5 and with a variety of hardware configurations. I must preface and say that I tend to most of my restoration work within DC6, just so I am not popping back and forth between programs. So, I record, edit, clean and prepare for CD within Diamond Cut.

After working on a restoration last night, I decided to bring it up. Almost without fail, I have a small but distinct click sound at the beginning and end of each file. This starts out being not too bad because I start my restorations with album sides. But when I chop the file into pieces, clicks are introduced into each beginning and end of each chopped piece.

It is not too bad of a process to get rid of these clicks, when I employ the mute function to the beginning and end of the files, the noise is suppressed; but it is one more step that I must go through in the restoration process. On rare occasions, the mute routine is not practical, especially if each track seamlessly goes from one to the next without any silence. Granted, I am hearing this "click" with headphones at a fairly high volume, but if not corrected, I can still hear it at a moderate volume with headphones in casual listening tests.

Am I doing something wrong? I have had the same exact situation with 3 different computers and 3 different sound cards starting with DC 5. I can't remember DCArt 32 ever doing this. The only thing that I can logically deduct is that this is about the time WDM drivers were introduced. I haven't tried switching to MME, or if this would make a difference. I have a brand new computer which should totally support WDM. Any ideas?

Geebster...

[sus4chord]

Hi, Geebster -

Did you remember to "Quantize for Audio CD" before chopping the file? I don't have the help file handy, but if I remember correctly, this will move your markers ever-so-slightly to ensure the files are all chopped on a particular byte-boundary. You can find more information about it in the help file or in the user manual. I always do that before chopping and have never had a problem with clicks at the file boundaries.

Additionally, I also make sure when I burn the album to CD, that I remove the 2-second gap that Nero wants to put between the tracks, so the files just butt up against each other like they did straight off the record.

Hope this helps.

[Dan McDonald]

Yes, the quantize for cd makes the program cut on sector boundaries so that you don't get a click between tracks. If you're getting the click a lot, then it's probably the sector boundaries.

If it's a different problem - one that I have seen maybe 3 times in several thousand cuts - you will actually see a spike in the wavefile at the end or beginning. I don't know what causes that. But I think the best way to know is to zoom in to the first second or so of the wav file and if you can see it, it's a different problem from the sector boundary problem.


Also, I never put in the two-second gap either. But if they're cut on sector boundaries, and if the program is set up right, the 2 second gap shouldn't create a click.

Dan

[Geebster]

Yes, the quantize for cd makes the program cut on sector boundaries so that you don't get a click between tracks. If you're getting the click a lot, then it's probably the sector boundaries.

Dan

I probably should have mentioned this in my earlier post, but yes, I have run the quantize function within the program. And just by the way the program acts, I feel that is NOT the root of the problem. I had another program that I used to use, (not as sophisticated as DC) that created a similar spike. After lots of investigative work on my part, I found that the problem was within that program.

I'm not saying that it's DC that is CREATING the problem, but something isn't quite right. When I use another one of favorite recording programs, no spike is introduced into the wavefile. Although I don't regularly use half the features within the Diamond Cut products, I'm not exactly a novice either (having restored conseratively 1500 or so projects); and it seems to me that there is a hardware/software irregularity somewhere that is creating this situation.

It's NOT that big of a deal; I have been using the other software to record the wavefiles and DC to do the restoration work and that has been working well. It just seems odd that this problem never reared it's head in DCArt32.

Geebster...

[Craig Maier]

What happens if you record your material with DC6 instead of the other program? Do you get the same result?

[Geebster]

What happens if you record your material with DC6 instead of the other program? Do you get the same result?

I hope I understand your question. But... If I record let's say an album side using DC6, I will more than likely get an audible click as soon as the record radio button is pushed (start of file) and I get the same type of click when the stop button is pushed (end of file). However, if I use the other program, I have been using, no click is heard at the beginning nor end of the file.

Is that what you are asking?

Geebster...

[Craig Maier]

Quoting Geebster:

"- - - I will more than likely get an audible click as soon as the record radio button is pushed - - - "

------------------------------

Geebster,

That is highly assumptious. I must go back to one of my basic philosophies - - - One experiment is worth a thousand expert opinions. Try it.

[Craig Maier]

Another thing that I can think of that can cause such a click is the soundcard driver. If you are using WDM drivers, and they are not realized properly by the manufacturer, that can produce a click at the beginning of a file. We provide an "Initialize at Play" checkbox under the soundcard preference to solve that problem. If you are using MME drivers, this situation does not apply.

Perhaps your other software is using MME's and you are using WDM's in Diamond Cut in conjunction with a problematic soundcard driver.

[Dan McDonald]

OK Geebster - if this is a problem with recording, I had that problem at one point and there is a post about it somewhere on the bbs. I don't recall the exact solution. It may have been to change which drivers the sound card was using (seems like that's the solution to a lot of problems). I'll poke around and see what I can find.

If it's a problem with each track after the cut, that's different.

[Geebster]

Another thing that I can think of that can cause such a click is the soundcard driver. If you are using WDM drivers, and they are not realized properly by the manufacturer, that can produce a click at the beginning of a file. We provide an "Initialeze at Play" checkbox under the soundcard preference. If you are using MME drivers, this situation does not apply.

Perhaps your other software is using MME's and you are using WDM's in Diamond Cut in conjunction with a problematic soundcard driver.

Yep, that's exactly my line of thinking too. Because the problem didn't develop until the WDM drivers came about. I'll check it out and see what happens, and I'll let you know.

Oh, I wasn't making any assumptions... EVERY recording I have made in recent memory (including last night) has had that click in the file.

I was working with someone at Tracer about this problem ages ago, but never completely resolved the issue.

And granted, I may be making a mountain out of a mole hill, because you can barely detect the click.... but I know it's there!!!! And it kind of drives me batty. I'm about 95 percent deaf in my left ear, but my right ear is above average, and I can sometimes hear things that other people can't.

In any event, I'll do some playing around and let you know what happens.

Geebster...

[Geebster]

Click Be Gone!!!!

OK Geebster - if this is a problem with recording, I had that problem at one point and there is a post about it somewhere on the bbs. I don't recall the exact solution. It may have been to change which drivers the sound card was using (seems like that's the solution to a lot of problems). I'll poke around and see what I can find.

If it's a problem with each track after the cut, that's different.

Yes... Dummy me. I should have checked to see if my sound card driver was up to date before I even started this thread! Being a former computer tech, sometimes I jump in straight for the more difficult solutions and forget the basics!!!

I found an updated driver for my sound card at the manufacturer's website and ran a few basic tests; and the result is that now that persistent click is gone!

Thanks everyone for your input. That's what's nice about this BBS; sometimes it just takes someone to mention a simple thing and voila a light goes off in your head.

Another problem solved.... This is a good day indeed!


Geebster...

[Dan McDonald]

That's good. I know I posted about this problem at one time myself, but I tried a search for "click" and got too many posts to find it, then tried "Sound card" and got too many, and then tried "beginning" and got too many to go through, so I'm glad that fixed it.

Dan

[Craig Maier]

Dan,

Did you try the "advanced" search engine feature? One thing that I have been wondering about is whether or not the search engine here is adequate. Sometimes one wants inclusive multiple word searches while other times one wants excluding word search combinations. I guess that another problem is the amount of data that has accumulated on this forum over the years. That makes it harder to narrow down things during a search. Lately, I have been trying to add "keywords" on more recent posts with the hope that the search engine may become a bit more effective. Not sure if it will be successful.

[Geebster]

Noise... revisited

I may of spoken too soon regarding my "noise" issue. Last night when I was doing a final preview on my final tracks for a project, I could hear absolutely no noise at the beginning or the end of each track (file); however, I saw the peak meters jump for a brief instant at both the beginning and at the end of each file. Having dealt with meters of all kinds from my broadcast and Dj days, I know that meters do not jump for no reason at all. BTW, I did all my normal pre CD mastering steps I usually do, quantize, normalize, if necessary.

I still wanted to see for myself if these meter "jumps" would translate into any noise after I burned the project. Just as I thought, when I auditioned the final product, I did indeed hear 'noise' where the meters jumped. I then reopened DC6 and sliced a bit of the file down to eliminate where the jump was occurring (cut function). I then burned the project again. This time no noise was present in the final project.

Yes, I finally got the result I wanted, but to me this seems like a step that I shouldn't have to go through. It seems odd that when played through the DC6 player, no noise is heard (just jumping meters), but when burned, this noise is evident. I could definitely live with this issue, but I was wondering what could be causing this? Any ideas?

Geebster (AKA GB)

PS. I'm phasing out Geebster; my future posts will be signed my real name, GB

[Craig Maier]

Unlike most audio editors, Diamond Cut "handshakes" with the soundcard after each block of data has been transferred before its cursor is incremented. If a handshake does not occur, the Diamond Cut Cursor will not move or will be jumpy. You will note that most other programs will move the cursor even if the sound card is completely dead.

Why do we do that? We want to be sure that the cursor only moves through the file when communications are occuring so that a false sense of security is not given to the user. It is a feedback mechanism to the user. This can also be a very useful diagnostic tool.

But, it also means that if WDM drivers are not designed properly (to the standard) by the sound card company, there will be problems (like glitches) with block data transfer. The Re-initialize on play feature often fixes this problem, but not always.

See if switching the soundcard preferences to MME drivers corrects this problem.