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**Craig Maier** · 05-24-2006, 02:39 PM

"Dull" audio restorations generally come from an overly agressive use of the CNF. Try to back down on the "Threshold" or the "Attenuation" settings which will allow more noise to get through, but will present a crisper restoration. In other words, you need to trade-off between noise reduction and recording brightness or presence.

Another common problem is that people transfer 78's using standard RIAA preamplifiers. That produces the wrong EQ curve which will make them sound dull. The best thing is to transfer 78's flat and then add the appropriate "Turnover" curve (found in the Diamond Cut Paragraphic EQ Presets Listing). If you do not have a flat preamp, then you should reverse the RIAA and add the correct turnover with the appropriate paragraphic EQ(s).

Note: In numerical terms, the application of an RIAA curve to a 78 RPM recording will attenuate signals at 10 KHz by 14 dB more than they should be. That is not a trivial value of high frequency attenuation and will definitely make a 78 RPM recording sound "dull" in response.

**DougMac** · 05-24-2006, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Jan Myren

Hello !!

I am a Norwegian who use your product for cleaning up 78 rpm records.

My problem is that the results tends to sound very "dull" and filtered, especially on recordings before 1950.

Compared with commercial CD's on the market with same type material, I think my results are rather poor.

Best regards
Jan Myren
NORWAY

Welcome Jan!

In order to help you better, I need to know a little more about your recording process. Your statement regarding a "dull" sound for pre-1950 recordings leads me to believe you are using a standard pre-amp with RIAA equalization. Best results come from using a flat preamplifier and applying the appropriate curves as part of the restoration process. If you don't have or can't get a flat pre-amp, the next best solution is to apply the "reverse RIAA" paragraphic filter.

I'm not sure how the commercial products sound different from the results you are getting. Keep in mind that they are usually working from far better sources than we are.

Here's how I restore a 78:

Careful cleaning using a cleaning liquid consisting of distilled water and LabTone (a laboratory equipment cleaning agent).

A test play with two different cartridges with different stylus size. Usually one stylus sounds better than the other. I plan to buy a set of five different stylii when I get the money.

Transfer using a Technics SP-15 turntable and an Audio Technica tonearm, transferring at 24/96 using a flat pre-amp.

Application of appropriate EQ (none for acoustics).

Impulse noise reduction, usually with multiple passes, including some with the file reversed.

Some manual interpolation if necessary. I try not to do this, the impulse filters do a much better job usually. Sometimes, though, there are a few artifacts that defy the filter.

Application of CNF. This, to me, is where it's most easy to come up with a dull sounding result. After doing a sample, I preview with the sample setting. I normally use the threshold control, while listening to the residue, to push the blue line down toward the red (noise) line. I stop when I hear little if any musical content. I then turn off the "check residue" and adjust the two rightmost blue squares, moving them up and away from the red line. This gets rid of most of the hiss while not "dulling" the music.

Conversion from stereo to mono.

I'm pretty conservative and a purist, therefore I rarely apply any "effects" filters (reverb, punch and crunch, VVA, etc.). I also tolerate a little noise instead of trying to come up with a completely noise free file.

Tell us about your setup. That may help in diagnosing your results.

Doug MacMillan
Juliette, Georgia, USA

**Jan Myren** · 05-24-2006, 03:21 PM

Help to restore 78 rpm records

Thank you very much for your answers and help so far!
I shall test out your suggestions as soon as possible.

You asked about how I transfer the 78's to the PC.

Well, I really think that I have really good equipment for this purpose, the big question is more if I use it correct. Here we go:

My turnable is a Thorens TD521, with the 10" SME 3012-R arm. I have a Stanton 500 cartridge and a number of different styli. I usually use a 2.5, it works well on most records. I bought those from "78 Archival Supplies" back in the early 90's. I also bought the "legendary" analogue phono pre-amp for 78's called "Owl 1" with adjustable turnover and rolloff!! I think that company is closed now. Not bad, I was only 22 years old then, but already digging for gold from old 78's...
Then I sold the "Owl 1" after I got in touch with KAB Accoustics, and then bought their pre-amp called KAB Souvenir VSP Vintage Sound Prosessor. I still use this one today as a pre-amp. It has 8 EQ curves, starting with accoustic records ca 1900 and goes up to "modern" 1955. It is also "stereo" in and "mono" out, and gives me the opportunity to select between (or mix) the left and right channel, depending on what groove that has least groovewear. It has also one filter for clicks and pops and one for surface noise, and all in all it is a ok full integrated pre-amp for analogue playback of 78's.

When I transfer the records to my hard disc drive I select the correct eq-curve on the KAB pre-amp and of course closes all the filters down. The sound I record into my computer is the correct sound according to the age of the record.
My sound card is a Creative Sound Blaster Audigy 2z5 that I bought 2 weeks ago. A really good soundcard, indeed!

I use the recorder on DC 5 and 44,1 Khz and in stereo, that I thereafter convert to mono, an advice from the manual. Then it's ready for filtering.

I think I will stop here, and hope any of you will come with comments about my work so far in the prosess. I'll assure you, here are not so many 78 rpm enthusiasts to discuss with in my area, or country for that sake!! Anyway, my interest for 78's and restoration work will not fade away because of that!

Glad to hear from you again, folks!!

Best regards
Jan Myren

**DougMac** · 05-24-2006, 08:27 PM

Nice Setup!

Jan,

Thanks for your equipment list. We can eliminate that as the source of your troubles. You do have a fine setup that should do well.

You say that when you transfer things sound fine. That leads me to believe the CNF is the culprit. Do the restoration chain one step at a time and determine where the sound quality deteriorates. Let us know.

It sounds like you convert to mono, then filter. You might want to try running the impulse noise filters first. Often the impulse is in one channel and not the other. When you blend to mono, you may get a slightly better result. Try it and see, especially on a file you've examined where there are some ticks in one groove wall that are less or not there in the other.

What kind of music is on the 78's you are restoring? Are they classical, popular?

I know it's a Swedish film, but I keep thinking about the gramophone in "My Life as a Dog", one of my favorite films.

Doug

**cromag** · 05-25-2006, 12:37 AM

I mostly do pop and rock LPs from the 60s and 70s, but

very "dull" and filtered

is exactly how I would describe the results I get when the filters are set too aggressively. Have you tried a few different, lower settings -- and listen to the "residue" to make sure you aren't throwing out too much music -- before you go to the multifilter?

Good luck!

**Jan Myren** · 05-25-2006, 04:17 AM

Restoring 78's

Thank you all so far.....

So I understand that you like my playback system and phono pre-amp.
You also advice me to still record in stereo, but then run the impulsive filter BEFORE I covert to mono.
Any suggstions about what impulsive filter, and the settings?
Myself I have chosen the multifilter chain called "General Purpose Filter", removed the CNF and DNF, and added a High pass filter with the setting freq. 55, 18db,Butterworth. That means a chain consisting of EZ, Imp 1 (78), Imp 2 (vinyl), Imp 3 (HQ), Median (3 samples, O weight) and the High Pass.
All in one multifilter chain. Question is if this is wise, maybe I should drop any of these filters, or even add another one??

Then I am finished to do some CNF, and that's the main problem, I guess. I'm not sure about what settings to use (Attac, release, treshold etc), when I use 125, 250, 35, the same as is reccomended on the demo, it rather sounds bad and dull, also after I have tweeked the settings as good as I can. So I run a Low Pass filter with the preset for "78 filter". I have then tried with bad luck to "re-create" the brightness of the sound that I lost during the process with doing the Viritual Walve, with the setting for "High End triode pre-amp" or The Dynamic Noise Filter with the preset "Spectral Exiter Enhancer". The VW sometimes "changes" the sound picture radically, even changes the voice to the singer, the DNF exiter sounds more natural. But in both cases the noice is back and I am more or less back to were I started.

Therefore folks, please give me any hints about what filkters to use, the running order, and som hints for settings. I would really be glad to get some new ideas!

Best regards
Jan Myren
NORWAY

**Jan Myren** · 05-25-2006, 12:48 PM

Restoring 78 rpm records

About music; I do pop, rock'n'roll, country and jazz records, not classic or operettes...

Jan

**Craig Maier** · 05-25-2006, 01:30 PM

78 Starting Point Preset

Doug has posted a preset on the preset sharing portion of the forum called something like "Starting Point for the 78 RPM Record". It can be found at the following link:

http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/showthread.php?t=1721

I do not know if this is compatible with DC5 as I am quite certain that Doug runs DC6 or the Live-Forensics version. But, you may want to give that preset a try anyway.

**Jan Myren** · 05-25-2006, 02:07 PM

78 rpm restoration

Hello!

I have tried to open the file, but it all looks more like a mess to me. I think I'm not able to open it, like I should.
I really hope that Dough will send me a detailed mail about his way of restoring a 78's.

Is there any big differences between the forensics and the normal version according to music restoration? I thought the forensics was ment for speaking and other types of noise problems, and not music??

Best regards
jan
NORWAY

**Craig Maier** · 05-25-2006, 02:38 PM

You should not try to open that preset file. You should import it into the software. There is a feature under the Edit menu called "Manage Presets". What you need to do is to download Dougs preset to somewhere like your desktop. Then, using the Diamond Cut Manage Presets feature, you want to import that preset into your software. I think that Dougs preset goes into the multifilter.

For more details about importing presets, refer to your Users Guide.

**DougMac** · 05-25-2006, 07:37 PM

The Other Doug

Originally posted by Craig Maier

Doug has posted a preset on the preset sharing portion of the forum called something like "Starting Point for the 78 RPM Record".

To avoid confusion, it was the other Doug who posted the starrting point preset.

Jan, as much as I'd like to, I can't post a detailed list of settings because I treat each 78 restoration as a new project. I haven't worked out a generic multi-filter as a starting point. Your questions may prompt me to do so. I can see creating a series of multi-filters for acoustic, early electric, 1930s and 1940s.

I really love the convenience of the multi-filter and I also like the concept of not doing multiple FFT transformations. However, I think it would be helpful for you to take one step at a time until you've worked out your settings and the filters you want to use. I run a filter, then select "Make Destination the Source" to move the results to the source window for the next filter. I usually check off "Delete prior file" (or whatever it says) and manually delete the intermediate files when I'm satisfied.

You wrote: "High pass filter with the setting freq. 55, 18db,Butterworth." Did you mean Low Pass filter? I think this may be the source of your muddiness. If the setting "55" means 5500, then you're setting your cutoff awfully low. Raise it to 7700 and see what you think. Also, our ears are fooled by the high frequency hiss present before the filtration. The filtered file will sound duller, although you have actullay not removed any musical content.

I must compliment you on your wonderful English! It's such a pleasure to converse with someone with similar interests who lives in another country. I regret that I don't speak more than one language. Perhaps one day my wife and I will have the chance to visit your beautiful country.

Doug MacMillan

**Craig Maier** · 05-25-2006, 07:52 PM

Nothing to do with Audio Restoration -

Folks,

DougMac got me a thinking about something that I heard years ago. Here it goes with a feeble attempt at some humor:

What do they call someone who can speak fluently in three languages?: Answer: That person is Trlingual.

What do they call someone who can speak fluently in two languages? Answer: That person is Bilingual.

What do they call someone who can speak fluently in only one language? Answer: That person is an American.

**Craig Maier** · 05-25-2006, 07:58 PM

Jan,

Is that High Pass Filter which is set to 55 and 18 dB/Octave, Butterworth intended to reduce rumble? If so, that is probably about right. Or, is DougMacs interpretation correct?

**Doug** · 05-25-2006, 08:17 PM

Hi Jan,
I'm the other "Doug" on the bbs. Craig is right in that I use DC6-live/Forensics. I posted a while back a couple of CNF combination methods that I use when trying to restore a 78rpm record. They can be found here:
http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/showthread.php?t=1689

Anyway, it is best if all impulse noise is removed (both automatically with the INF and manually). Then work from there. I use both an averaging and median filter. For distortions I use either the Punch 'n' Crunch filter or dynamic filters. Then, and only then, I run it through the CNF. These earlier processing stages help remove some of the noise fluctuations that force us to use heavier attenuation in the CNF.

However, It may just be that your records have a poor fidelity to start with, and that you are hearing a "pseudo-fidelity" effect before you use the CNF. I found that by looking at the spectrum, I was often expecting too much or hearing things that were never really there.

If you'd like to share your attempt with me in mp3 format, I am more than happy to see if I can help or improve.

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Need help restoring 78 rpm records

Need help restoring 78 rpm records

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